Tuesday, August 28, 2007

Questions about education

The questions posed are in red...my answers below...you can see I didn't get far....

Q. No one has really stated what the best way is to manage change in order to innovate curriculum. What are some good ways that you can think of? Would technology be one? How can changes in curriculum be managed?

Change is difficult, no matter what. With the amount of information that is available online today there are 2 truths.

1. We REALLY need to teach our kids how to search for information and provide them with good resources to do so. Joyce Valenza is a librarian in Springfield Township who is the guru of Library 2.0. Her virtual library teaches kids through data bases, etc... and her kids are scaffolded so they become responsible and engaged in finding information from appropriate sources.

2. We can't have the same kind of 6 year curriculum renewal cycle as we have done in the past. Much of this was as a result of budgeting in terms of you can't spend money every year for change in subjects. However if that budget could be spent on technology and the teachers could

In terms of finding these resources there is OODLES of open courseware on the web: MIT OpenCourseWare website, Wikipedia entry for OpenCourseWare, Apple offers the Learning Interchange that offers an ever growing library of content for educational use. Wikibooks is an opencourseware project dedicated to create Open Source textbooks that can easily be shared and edited. You can click here to see a list of free books the site already offers!

Center for Innovation in Engineering and Science Education....the list goes on and on...

In terms of management Using Online Course Management systems such as Moodle or Drupal to build and store curriculum resources in house is a way to manage, but this is going to take quite a shift on the part of teachers--new and old.

Q. Since NCLB is in the process of being reauthorized, what is your opinion on how effective NCLB has been? Do you think it should be reauthorized? Are there pros and cons in NCLB?

I am a huge fan of the YouTube Debates- -You may have seen this in my blog...I feel pretty much the same way as Governor Richardson...It is GREAT is philosophy (all kids can learn) the problem is they need to fund it (as stated in the debate video) so the kids are successful and they need to provide ways for teachers not just to differentiate, but to gather data so that they can see what standards the kids need to focus on so that they are differentiating the right stuff.

Q. I understand that children do not learn the same way. How can we teach all children based on this? How can we even assess them? Would technology help with this?

Here is 1 example of using tech to assess and then using the data to differentiate.

Two years ago when I taught 3rd grade, I had a program called kidbiz...it was an online reading program. Kids took a pretest online that leveled them. Then the kids were delivered an article a day on their reading level via "email" through the system every article was on the same topic just written at different levels. There were then questions (PSSA like) for each one and a writing assignment. The data I was given for scores I could drill down to the standard to see who was missing what and it DROVE what I taught in my reading class and helped me to have flexible guided reading groups. I had 20 kids who ranged from 1st grade- 6th grade level at the beginning of the year...I would have never been able to gather that data without the technology. By the end of the year I didn't have a kid in my class who scored basic or below on the PSSAs and 4 of my kids scored advanced. That is 20% of my class....The articles were current, interesting, engaging...I didn't have to spend a ton of time or money finding books to match all the levels...this is just one way.

Q. How can technology be incorporated into curriculum? Should schools gradually keep implementing more and more until people become comfortable with it? The change might not be so noticeable then and more schools may be willing to give technology a try.

This is the question I have posed for the research study I am designing...Do you force the tech on folks and force them to change...Implement before innovation, or allow them to become innovative before implement (throw a bunch of stuff at them) Here is my analogy...
Let's say you have a couple of really great chefs...and they whip up an AMAZING 7 course meal and then put it all out at once...people are overwhelmed...they don't know what to try first...they eat TOO MUCH and get sick or just walk away from the table. VS having the chefs cooking up the great stuff and then having different folks serve up each course...

In our district we have been granting LCD projectors over the past 3 years. This summer when all of the teachers were issued laptops, all of the rest of the HS teachers got projectors installed...I am doing an eclass training on Wed...I am using a wikispace as my presentation tool. They can go to the site for all of these resources...my objective is 2 fold.
1. to give them a place to go to find resources and to know who to come to if they need help
2. by using a progressive tool like a wiki and having them join and discuss, they see the tool IN USE and may start to think of ways THEY could implement in their classroom.
Other teachers who were in a 1:1 classroom are also presenting stuff we "cooked up" together last year...for their departments so they can see real world applications.

I believe you have to have the technology available, but you should only TEACH it to them once they have seen it in use in a seamless way...it is not about the TOOL, it is about the learning that can happen if you use that tool...yes you have to learn to use it, but you have to know WHY and have a good reason to use it yourself before you need to know HOW.

Q. Do you agree with funding schools with more money based on how well the students do on standardized tests? What is your opinion on standardized tests and how they affect schools?

I think probably the answers I have to #2 should cover this. I think that project based learning is a WAY better way to assess what kids know and are able to do. Kids who can pass a test are good at playing school --I have some GREAT notes from NECC (National Educational Computing Conference) I attended in Atlanta http://www.box.net/shared/z80hv3ltq2
from Ian Jukes regarding testing, project based learning and 21st Century skills. Check those out.


Q. As I was reading some of your blog and the articles that you referenced, I wondered what you would suggest for new teachers who see the value in incorporating technology in the classroom but may be entering a district which is placing strict parameters around its use?


    Q. For someone, like myself, who is an immigrant to the world of technology but sees the power of using it in a classroom, where do you suggest I start without being completely overwhelmed? (Through the multimedia course that I'm currently taking, I have been introduced to WebQuests, Wikis, etc.)
    The key word in your question is INTRODUCED...yes you have been introduced, but the way to truly see the power is by using these tool in relevant real world ways. In my latest post, I challenged professors rather than to have their students ASK about these things to USE them. Actually this question should go before the first because if you are using the tools or see value and can argue for it, AND you can reach some of the decision makers....really they have no choice but to take the risk. Check out this MS course from a local school http://onlineconnections.wikispaces.com/ Which leads me to ...

    Q. In regards to your Wiki, what all do you like to use it for? I'm very new to it & originally thought that it would be a good tool for me to share information about my particular program with parents and even other teachers. I know there must be so much more to it! What are the possibilities?
    I use wikis for everything
    A good how to

    An interesting model

    Q. Through your years of experience in education and with your obvious excitment about technology, what are some examples that you've witnessed of the changes to our digital world & the impact those changes have had on student learning/understanding? How about the impact they've had on connecting teachers to each other and other resources?
    I have

    Q. Okay so here's another question as I'm working on page 3 of my 10-15 page paper!!! AGHHHHH! As far as 21st Century Learning goes and incorporating technology that will enhance students' skills in those areas, are educator's (in your circle of influence) agreeing for the most part that these skills are crucial to student success in the future or is much of it falling on deaf ears?

    SET 3
    Q. I agree with your take on the 'When Tech Attacks' article and was wondering what effects you think this sort of article has on educators who aren't as comfortable with technology, and/or who are in districts without tech resources. For example, if I had read this article as a tech-rookie, it's possible that I could be scared away from these technologies because of their dangerous potential. Do you think that's likely to have been the case, or do you think most educators are aware of the benefits of such technologies even after having read such a one-sided article?

    Q. In your experience, are most teachers effectively adapting to their students' use of technology? Specifically, are they finding ways to reach students with technology?

    Q. How big of a role do you think district policies play in individual teachers' technology use as it relates to students, whether it's inside or out of the classroom?

    Q. You mention that schools aren't spending enough time thinking about how we can connect with students in our classrooms. I'm a big fan of using technology (although a novice when it comes to using tech in education), and I was wondering why you think this issue isn't getting enough attention.

    SET 4 :

    Q. Being that there has been a major influx of technology's use in the classroom, how would you suggest a new teacher find a happy-medium? Too much technology closes the door on a good teacher/student bond, yet not using technology today could put student eons behind their peers

    I am not sure I understand

    Q. How does one come to determining what kind of technology to use in the classroom? Trial and error, school issued/told to use by the school district, studies that have been conducted, etc?

    I addressed in a prior question...you really need to know WHY tools are used...the right tool for a job before trying to implement...teacher users should be a district's first line...

    It is important for ...

    Q. How would you suggest handling a reading lesson using technology? What if there is not a good student:computer ratio? Go old school - all books or have a rotating schedule with the computers your classroom does have?

    ISSUES: Equity in schools & at home
    address the idea of committment...funding for the future

    Q. Would you have any advice to offer a "soon to be" teacher and the use of technology in their classroom?

    GET STARTED...read blogs, comment, grow a network explore the possibilities

    Q. How do you approach the school district encouraging them to use the new technology you have found, or do you find your district to be on "the cutting edge" with the new world of technology? Any advice/words of wisdom you could give someone wanting to present a new technology idea to the school board?

    Have a bunch of folks in PA who DID JUST THAT--hope they will come on and comment

    An a-ha moment...

    I had an a-ha moment this evening....

    Today is our second day of preservice...I was at the Middle School at 7 to set up for the opening day video (which I was up til midnight finishing tomorrow). Had a faculty meeting, grabbed a quick lunch to go, got back just in time to face 3 groups of nervous teacher with new macbooks
    trained til 4...Picked up vibes from the group that I would need to revise wikiworkshop for tomorrow....picked up kids, quick dinner (hubby out of town), played outside, 3
    kids through tubs and in bed just in time for my 2 hour flashmeeting...I think..
    WHAT A GREAT DAY...I LOVE MY JOB...as busy as it is, I get to connect, read, reflect, think, share all of the things I read and learn on a daily basis...can't wait to do it again tomorrow... I will read my mail, catch up on a few posts, perhaps take some reflections down in scribefire...
    So I checked my gmail...some of the students who had requested a blogger interview were checking in on my answers. UGH, not on my list for today...yesterday it was on my list, but....

    The thing is, I really DO want to answer their questions...they are GREAT questions...things that I and many other folks struggle with...but each question that was posed is a blog post in and of itself. Hmm...answering questions with out feedback, response, others reflecting on the same things isn't how I operate.....

    I thought about the assignment... Interview a blogger and write a paper... 1 way conversation...You ask / I delive
    r A-HA.... is this what is happening in schools

    Then I thought about what we want from our kids in their learning...Isn't that what we want kids who are actively engaged in the learning process. It is the dialogue in blogs, twitter, voicethread, the discussions on wikis etc... that is so engaging. I learn SO MUCH by connecting with information, ideas, and PEOPLE...

    I explained to the student that the issues that were raised in their questions, were WAY bigger than I PERSONALLY had time to address briefly....I am a blogger :P
    therefore, I just cant quick type up answers especially when multiple folks are looking for answers to different question. I thought about using a conference call to discuss skype, ichat, or
    aim or even gchat...PROBLEM SOLVING...another GREAT SKILL for kids. Could Elluminate be set up with different bloggers in breakout rooms...would these be a more effective way of using these 21st C Skills in authentic ways? Is a "traditional paper" the best way to assess what these ladies have learned or would having them comment on this site be enough?

    Believe me, this document contains a TON of material that I WILL be writing about, reflecting on, and posing to my network...
    I think it is great to have new teachers think about these things...but these ladies have a "paper due"

    Sorry I can't do more for these ladies at this time...but maybe you could help....

    Here is a link to the google doc http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcf68xfb_18ggdv3k
    Am going to try to post right from google docs to my blog (new skill for me, I'll admit)

    PLEASE post your comments here or there so we can these ladies can do their paper AND demonstrate the power of networking, blogs, and Web2.0 Skills;-)

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    Sunday, August 26, 2007

    The point of blogging...

    Recently Chris Lehmann tweeted about some graduated students contacting him about and I have found a few requests in my email box recently as well. While it is flattering to be considered "interesting" and people who know me know that these are the types of things that keep me up at night...this is a REALLY busy time of year. Many of us have spent the summer learning, connecting, applying and now we want to serve up a 7 course meal of great "stuff" to our teachers and are busy planning. Everyone knows we WANT to share the message of 21st Century in schools (me for my own selfish reasons--my own digital kids) but the last thing I need on my plate when ramping up for a new school year is to have to do a graduate assignment that isn't my own.

    I have to say first, that I LOVE the concept of this assignment....send preservices students out to look at how the skills are being utilized, reflect on what they read, make connections and then create something to show what they have learned...What do we want kids to do when they read? We want them to make
    connections, reflect, interpret, and then write their thoughts...HMMM
    isn't that the point of blogging. Read, reflect, question, analyze, create....One of the best thing that I have discovered this summer (although it didn't do well by me this evening) is scribefire. Scribefire is a firefox add on that allows me to jot notes as I am reading my feeds...creating posts as I go...the only problem is you MUST save as notes as you go in case of a firefox crash. I read a post, comment read another post, make a connection...open scribefire, save as note...eventually I have created my own post, my own meaning from what I have read.

    In having the student email the blogger, they are still asking these students to use 20th century ways to get their questions out. I guess my concern is that by having them read and then email the blogger they are losing the concept of collaboration (a 21st C Skill). When a bunch of students email questions that were probably addressed already in the blog, it not only creates a lot of work for the blogger, it also limits the conversation to those 2 people...ANYWAY, I came up with a creative solution of a google doc where I posted all of the questions and answers. If your paper is due Friday too, feel free to email me and ask to be added as a viewer :)

    If you are a professor, and you want your students thinking about 21st century learning, rather than asking your students to email a blogger have them comment on what they have read...set up RSS to subscribe to their username if you want to see where they are leaving their mark. Create a google doc for your notes or have your students skypecast your next lecture. Have them create their own learning networks via Ning or tappedin If you want to contact an edublogger (or 2 or 3) ask them to come into your class via their elluminate VRoom or request that they set up a flashmeeting. MODEL the skills that these teachers will need to be using to engage their students when they have classrooms of their own.

    AND if you are a preservice teacher and you have this assignment I encourage you to comment on some of the blogs you are reading...start the conversation there. Create your OWN blog, reflect online, talk to others, become an advocate for your students and how they learn.
    Pay attention

    Cause when they grow up....

    I may be ruffling feathers this evening...Thoughts?

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    TV 2.0

    Way back in June, Edutopia had a great article (which has been sitting in my draft folder to write about) about the implications of the YouTube era.
    "It’s a chaotic time for television, now that Internet video has arrived. Moving swiftly up the media food chain -- from text to images to audio and now video -- broadband distribution has made TV on your PC a reality."
    When introducing teachers to resources to use with LCD projectors in creating a multimedia classroom, I created a wiki to point to a variety of digital video sources including the Future Channel, a place where teachers can connect learning to real world applications of math and science using problem solving approaches. This summer, while on a trip to Hershey, to get the baby to sleep, I took my 2 older children and sat them on the floor outside the room...My son's idea..."Mom, can we bring your computer so we can watch those magic school bus movies?" We use unitedstreaming all of the time at my house for learn. Watching something online is a very common event for them. Resources like teachertube allow educators and their students to post content they have created. Splashcast and now schooltube enable entire "tv channels" to create and play this content.

    Learning, creating in bits and bytes...engaging, yes...knowledge building, can't help but wonder, what is going to happen to commercial content...and might some folks be tempted to take it so far to the extreme that we lose some kids in the digital void like in Chris Van Allsburg's The Wretched Stone.
    I battle this with my own kids...always to turn to TV2.0 vs other ways to find information. I am asking as a parent and an educator, how do you strike a balance?

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    Tuesday, August 21, 2007

    Learning to learn and Loving learning

    Through my twitter feed and blogroll, I realize that many teachers are struggling with the challenge of creating Web2.o experiences and 21st Century Skills to their students...adminstrative challenges such as who's accountable when Web2.0 tools are allowed to be accessed in schools. What will the future of work hold for our kids? Are we preparing them?
    "Education is a social process. Education is growth. Education is, not a preparation for life; education is life itself."
    I can't define exactly the moment that I realized that I was a lifelong learner...or that I valued the process of learning...but I can tell you that I have learned more this summer through my social network than I have in many years of school....you can bet that our students are learning an awful lot through their social networks these days....
    A possibility of continuing progress is opened up by the fact that in learning one act, methods are developed good for use in other situations. Still more important is the fact that the human being acquires a habit of learning. He learns to learn.
    Mind you this was not written in the year 2007, these ideas have been around a LONG TIME....From Democracy and Education (1916)...via wikiquote mind you :)

    Chris Lehman has been struggling with the difference between change and Innovation, and John Pederson wrote recently about the ACT of change vs the decision TO change... Reading all these things, talking about these ideas via twitter, blog comments, skype has really created a lot of "stuff" in my head...
    So this post for me serves many purposes...
    1. to remind me..remind us ALL, that these IDEAS are not new...but the tools we have to implement them are and we are going to need to do a lot of supporting of kids and teachers to use these tools in ways that support 21st Century Skills.
    2. to get start thinking, and DISCUSSING what is needed to move forward, push the envelope, innovate...or make changes
    3. finally to recognize the folks in my blogroll and twitterfeed that have reminded me how exciting it is to be a lifelong learner...
    Thanks to my local, virtual, and global "colleagues". This summer has been inspiring for me--I can't wait to share all I have learned with the kids, teachers, and administrators with whom I will work this year.

    Friday, August 17, 2007

    Can YouTube get ANY BETTER?

    I know there are many arguments against using YouTube in schools, but I came across this nifty little feature and wonder why....

    YouTube has given the ability to create an embeddable player from any playlist of folder from YouTube...The above are all the videos that I have added as my favorite Ed Tech Videos. Now I DO wish that they would take away the fact that you can still link out to the YouTube site, but what a great way for teachers to provide resources to their students OR to publish student work and then create a player to embed in their blog, wiki, moodle. I added the same player to my own wiki sharing my YouTube playlist in my blog, my wiki....Hmmmm the possibilities....
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    Tuesday, August 14, 2007

    When technology....attacks?

    I have to admit, I was intrigued when this first hit my twitter thread via John Pederson.
    When Technology Attacks. Seriously. "Schools are fighting a war..." and "...be ready to do battle" http://tinyurl.com/2qrb4x Couldn't wait to get off the beach to see what the link held for me....

    It was a link to the cover article of the most recent Scholastic Administrator Magazine...
    As I was reading I didn't know whether to be shocked, distressed or annoyed...

    Schools across the country are waging a war against technology tools gone bad. Read how some districts defend their classrooms against the new school thuggery—from iPod cheats to cell phone punks and sneaky Web surfers.
    To start an article like this...SIGH....

    Drugs can be used illegally, but they are also a cure for many diseases...A hammer could be used to kill someone, but it can also be used to build shelter...Knives can be used to kill as well, but my even my 5 year old has been taught to use it to cut her food.... and as I pointed out in an earlier post....PENCILS can be dangerous perhaps we should ban THEM from the classrooms.

    I have seen Will Richardson present on MANY occasions and have read his book and he is right...this is NOT an easy issue. Teachers are clamoring to use collaborative technology in the classroom and administrators are facing pressures from parents and school boards to implement policies to curb its use. But even the National School Board Association is encouraging schools to re-examine their social networking policies. I understand that the hook, the shock value is what gets folks to read, but to I am disappointed that Scholastic chose only to demonstrate the way schools have been battling "issues" and not focus on ways they have demonstrated successes.

    Please, read the article, read John's response to the article, and start the conversations in your own school districts....Make this a successful tech school year in your district and then...let scholastic adminstrator know about it.

    Sunday, August 12, 2007

    Reexamining Social Networking in Schools....?

    Recently David Warlick pointed to an article in which the National School Board Association is encouraging schools to re-examine their social networking policies and the conversation surrounding this has been interesting around the blog-o-sphere. If you haven't read the NSBA's Creating and Connecting Report, I encourage you to do so...Will Richardson looked at some of the statistics and the fact that many districts have their own structured online professional communities.

    As I was thinking about the implications of the NSBA article, I came across an interesting article in CNN Money about a report done by Microsoft, MTV and Nickelodeon and while I can't find the report itself, Microsoft's press release was posted globally from AllAfrica.com to IndiaInfoline, and the findings as stated in THIS report were intriguing:
      The report found:
    -- Technology has enabled young people to have more and closer
    friendships thanks to constant connectivity.
    -- Friends influence each other as much as marketers do. Friends are as
    important as brands.
    -- Kids and young people don't love the technology itself -- they just
    love how it enables them to communicate all the time, express
    themselves and be entertained.
    -- Digital communications such as IM, email, social networking sites and
    mobile/sms are complementary to, not competitive with, TV. TV is part
    of young peoples' digital conversation.
    -- Despite the remarkable advances in communication technology, kid and
    youth culture looks surprisingly familiar, with almost all young
    people using technology to enhance rather than replace face-to-face
    -- Globally, the number of friends that young males have more than
    doubles between the ages of 13-14 and 14-17 -- it jumps from 24 to 69.
    -- The age group and gender that claims the largest number of friends are
    not girls aged 14-17, but boys aged 18-21, who have on average 70
    The article goes on to examine each of these trends...with a bit of a marketing twist...
    I give this as an example "And for IM, the top topics for 14-24s were: gossiping (62%), making arrangements (57%), talking about the opposite sex (57%) and flirting (55%), work or school (54%) and TV and music (52%). "Given the amount of time young people are spending on instant messenger every day presents a very powerful opportunity for brands to connect with the youth audience. When on IM, teenagers are at their most engaged and interactive," said Vogt. [Caroline Vogt, Head of International Research, Microsoft Digital Advertising Solutions.]

    For as much press as the NSBA article is getting, I was surprised that this is not getting as much "airtime" Hmmm, the advertising industry is saying connect to kids, the NSBA is saying connect to kids, yes...change is tough and scary, but isn't it time we start to examine how we are connecting to kids in schools? Thoughts?

    Wednesday, August 08, 2007

    Connectivity...in the eyes of a 7 year old...

    I am on a much needed vacation...at the Jersey Shore. The house in which we are staying does not have internet access...but there is a coffee shoppe down the street that has free wifi. I usually go there in the am to catch up on my feeds before everyone gets up. When we are lucky and the weather is just right, we are able to connect to their access...hey I go there for coffee every am any way ;-)

    This morning my son was up early. He is 7 and had used his spending money yesterday to buy his 2nd webkinz. The following is the conversation we had at 6:30 am....Mind you I was up at 4:30 to finish my research...but alas, not internet access at the house...

    "Mommy...I need to get on your computer...
    Me too, Austin, I have work to do.
    But I have to garden....Why can't you do your work on your computer and I can do my webkinz on the black one?
    Because there is no internet here at the house today.
    But we could play yesterday....
    I know, but today we can't get internet access...you need to be able to connect to the internet to play webkinz.
    So why can't you just plug it in...
    Well, it is a different kind of plug you need. You know at home we have the blinky box that tells us we are connected to the internet. That box is a router, it connects your computer to the internet so you can play your games and mommy can do her work. We don't have one here at this house.
    At this point, he goes and unplugs my cell phone....
    What are you doing Austin?
    Calling Daddy to tell him to bring down our box.....
    PRICELESS...His perception, if we have all of the tools, we can connect...to meet his objectives...hmmmmm what is this saying to us as educators?

    Austin & I headed to the coffee shop when it opened at 7. He harvested his garden, set up his rooms, cared for his pets and played games while I did my research. What struck me about the whole experience was the expectation he had...that his tools would always be available...and how he was going to problem solve to be able to do what he needed to do. And watching him play--battleship...and dice kinz, the strategy he used to win the game (and he very rarely lost using his strategy) How he methodically planned his time and money to get what he needed. Reading the kinznews....did I know that if we got back to the coffee shop before it closed at 10 (pm mind you) we could get our coupon for the day..and he is 7...and in September....

    I have had an interesting conversation this week with Jeff Utecht which started with a post he wrote about putting it in perspective....why do we keep barking up the same old trees...
    Because there are MANY Austin's in our classes...and we want to provide them with the same rich learning experiences in schools to meet OUR objectives.

    Monday, August 06, 2007

    8 Random Facts


    I have been tagged...

    TWICE by Ken Pruitt, AND Chris Champion...And although 1 of my facts is I have NEVER completed a chain letter or about me email, I thought since I am on vacation and not participating in the 31 day blog challenge, I would take them up on this meme and complete...

    Anyway, here are the rules:

    • Post these rules before you give your facts
    • List 8 random facts about yourself
    • At the end of your post, choose (tag) 8 people and list their names, linking to them
    • Leave a comment on their blog, letting them know they’ve been tagged

    My Facts:

    1. I have visited 47 out of the 50 states...Alaska, Mississippi, and Louisiana the only ones I am missing
    2. I ran the Philadelphia half marathon...short of giving birth (3 times), one of my most rewarding (and challenging) accomplishment.
    3. I used to drive a red convertible...sigh now a cranberry minivan.
    4. I had my tonsils out as an adult...
    5. I secretly love dance, dance revolution...although I am not much of a dancer it is GREAT exercise.
    6. I love kid's movies ...just about as much as my kid's do
    7. For years I spent my summers directing pools and summer camps.
    8. Every once in a while I DO crash...although no one seems to believe this

    Am tagging 8 folks I think will....a) read my blog and respond, b) won't mind being tagged (or read as a result:) or are likely to find out that I tagged them via technorati:)
    Don't let me down power 8....
    Jim B
    Mrs. Durff